What's the proper etiquette?

[Mike McLean]

Can you advise me - as it occurred to me yesterday at the convention....

What's the proper etiquette with regard using shots from classes or workshops at the Convention (or ANY convention or training session)? Am I able to add these to my portfolio and marketing materials as my own, or would this be inappropriate and tabboo?

Thanks!

[SeanMcCormack]

It's certainly taboo for competition. I guess use for marketing is up to you. At Monkey Business, Mark Cleghorn does allow usage for marketing.

Can you repeat these shots without outside help?

[Mike McLean]

Yes, I don't think I would have any significant problem repeating the shots - I suppose the query relates to the fact that someone has put together the kit (or might even be their kit) and is footing the bill for perhaps the venue or the model.

And I guess that's where my query comes from - there's a concern that I am "profitting" from someone else's expense

[Bev Downie]

It is generally not allowed as you don't have a model release sounless you are specifically told you can use them then assume you can't.

Use it as an opportunity to take out some models and put what you have learned into practice and use your own shots.

[Mike McLean]

Thanks Bev

I didn't intend to use any shots i might have taken - but I want to ensure I stay on the right side of the line and not be impoliet or inappropriate

Thanks for your advice

[Matt 'Spamalot' Cain]

Usage of the shots taken during a teaching class depends on the person leading the class.

For example, Faye and Trevor have posted in the past about delegates not being able to use images from their classes except as reference photos for your own use to reproduce the techniques. Another example: I asked Damian if he was happy for me to use a shot if I attributed it to his class and mentioned it was using his setup (I only took one with his setup; the rest I shot with him were of the setup itself for reference to help me practice something similar) he was happy with full attribution.

If the person teaching a class is happy for delegates to use images from it, many delegates will use images and they will end up with the same as others there. If others from your class are in your area and someone is searching for a photographer, they will come across the same shots which will devalue your website or marketing material. You have to decide if you can easily reproduce images like those taken; if you can, there is no point in using the images. If you can't, the morality question comes in. You're then promising a prospective client something you can't reproduce making it a question of morality....... I know for certain that I wouldn't be happy with a car manufacturer promising me 75mpg when the reality is that the vehicle only does 50mpg under the conditions described in the advertising.

Please note that all usage of the word "you" is a general "you" and not directed at Mike or other posters.

[Terrie Jones]

Images from any workshops/training session cannot be entered into our competitions.

Hope this helps.

Terrie

[Michael Shilling]

I think the keyword here is training that's exactly what these images are after all.

I personally wouldn't want to pass someone else's ideas or style off as my own work but there you go

[Michael Turner]

I would suggest that in certain outdoor classes (like mine), where there is often the opportunity to set up original (albeit similar) shots under guidance, the delegates should use the images :

1. Primarily as visual notes for their own use.
2. As filler images in their promotional portfolio providing they created the images with some of their own input eg changing the pose slightly.
3. Definitely NOT for competition or qulaification under any circumstance.

It's understandable that new photographers will want to use shots captured during workshops to fill out their folios. However, I'd advise replacing them with original images of their creation as as soon as possible.

In more structured and stylized workshops where the lighting and posing are totally set up by the tutor it is totally unethical in my view for delegates to promote them as their own work. In this case the images should be used for reference only.

Hope that makes sense.  

[Michael Turner]

I might add that I'm trying to take a balanced view and allow for some leeway under certain circumstances, but I do agree with you Michael (Shilling).

[prettypictures]

To the best of my belief (I am not a lawyer) it isn't illegal in the UK to use photographs taken at seminars for self publicity without a model release from being signed however the moral case is quite clear: I haven't, won't and have never used any image taken at a seminar for any purpose except for my own reference.

I suppose there might just be a case for showing such a picture on your website provided you made it quite clear the circumstances that the image was taken; not a route I have gone down.

For reference people pictures taken without a model release can be used for editorial or textual reasons but not for any commercial purposes such as advertising.

I have over 3000 images at a stock library but I have never used clients' pictures not because it would be illegal but a major breach of trust; same goes for seminar images.

Peter.

[Mike McLean]

Can I just reiterate that I have no intention of using the photos for commercial reasons - but that it struck me as a question I felt I need to have a definitive answer to.  With every response I read, I feel more and more guilty that I might have given the impression I was about to create advertising material from my convention clases....   

Thanks for the responses - it is really interesting to hear every one else's thoughts and opinions.

I do think it is largely a moral issue and that to utilise images where the setups are the fruits of the labours of another professional, breaches an unspoken trust between teacher and pupil.

[prettypictures]

I think that your opening phrase "Can you advise me - ....." exonerates you entirely; if anybody had any intention of using seminar pics as their own it is doubtful if they would state their intentions here.

Regards, Peter.

[Michael Turner]

The point made by Matt about duplication is also a valid one. In displaying images from a workshop there is always the danger that you will promote yourself with similar images to one of your competitors. The sensible approach is to take shots for reference and then recreate your own unique versions afterwards. Providing you're confident that you can replicate your technique and set-up for a client then the training has had the desired result and you'll be another rung up the ladder.
Promoting yourself with images that you're not able to repeat with confidence will only lead to disaster. 

[David Simm]

One thing that always amuses me about discussions like this is that whichever way you look at it, the shots at a training exercise are just that, they're not really portfolio shots and there's the model who makes a living by posing in the pictures, which are for training, not commercial use.

However, there is a time honoured BIPP ruling that contradicts everything I just said, that it doesn't matter who set up the light, no matter who posed the model, who set the exposure.... it's the person with his/her finger on the button who took the photograph. So I guess you're on your own, it's is now down to your integrity.