Selling on eBay - BEWARE!

[Gary Davies]

Hi all, just wanted to share my rather sorry experience and maybe save someone else the hassle that I've had..

I sold a 70-200 2.8L IS at the beginning of August on eBay for £1100, including next day special delivery. The lens was in good condition, worked perfectly, no optical issues, just a small scratch on the underside of the barrell. Lens was received by the buyer and I got good feedback. Then a few days later, I start getting complaints that the lens is 'faulty' as the image jumps around in the viewfinder. Despite me refuting that the lens was faulty, the buyer took it to a camera shop (starting with a J...) who confirmed it was 'faulty'. Of course, I didn't get to see any evidence of this.

I'd withdrawn the cash from PayPal on the day I received it and damn good job too, as eBay decided to refund her and told her to send the lens back to me as it 'wasn't as described'.

Eventually the lens arrived back with me, sporting a dent to the tripod ring and a very loose IS element. I expect this is going to cost a small fortune to repair.

eBay are now chasing me for £1100 and are threatening all sorts of things. Of course, I'm not paying and it's looking like I'll have to face them in the small claims court... 

For the trouble this has caused and the amount of money you pay eBay and PayPal these days, it's not worth the risk in my opinion. I wouldn't sell ANYTHING of value on there ever again.

Just make sure you're aware of the risks when selling stuff on eBay - they are a law unto theirselves.

Gary

[Michael Martin]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Gary. I hope it is sorted out to your satisfaction. I suppose the lesson here is to get pictures of the lens before you ship it so its condition can be verified, maybe with a daily newspaper in the photo too so the time stamp can not be argued.

[Gary Evans]

I presume that in your listing you had photos showing no damage before the lens was sold?     I also presume it was well packed as couriers dont treat things as well as you might think.   (says the ex-van driver!  )

Personally I would have had a report done prior to selling simply due to the value of what you are selling, but without seeing the report the buyer has had done I wouldnt refund anything.

PayPal is notorious for this, so phone them instead of using their "Resolution Center"

[Gary Davies]

I do have photos but I'd listed it quickly as a buy it now from work and used the stock image, aiming to replace with the actuals later. The lens sold within 24 hours, so I didn't get round to putting them on.

Yes, it was well packaged, in the original box and then packed in a box twice the size and stuffed out with polychips. It came back in the same packaging too, and it was unscathed. Incidentally, the buyer sent it back UNINSURED..!! 

I don't believe the buyer did get a report - the last time I went to Jessops to ask for a lightmeter, the assistant looked blankly at me and offered a light-tent. Quite clearly, it's been dropped.

[Barry Paffey]

You have to be very careful with both eBay and PayPal they rule the world and trying to deal with them directly is virtually impossible.

I have sold many items and some for large sums of money and, touch wood, haven't had any problems. I always take lots of pictures as a record and when possible deal directly with the buyer. I also sold a similar lens recently and luckily the buyer lived close to me and paid cash. They inspected the lens with me present and signed a receipt to say they were happy with the condition. I know that's not always possible, but if you take reasonable precautions it is possible to trade on eBay without too many problems.

[TURTLEC]

OK there are a number of issues in this scenario.
You might be correct that the buyer has dropped the lens or something and is 'chancing it' to get a refund.
Equally EBAY are (at least to soem extent) correct because you listed the nens using 'stock images' you basically have no proof that any damage did not exist before you sold it.The can easily say its not as described because the pic you provided is of a brand new lens etc.

I know its harsh but just because you listed it quickly and it sold is not really any excuse for not posting actual pics.

Now the one thing I WOULD do is check the serial number of the lens returned to you just to make sure it is actually the one that you sold. It is perfectly possible that the buyer has dropped etc their own lens and simply purchased another off you , then they claim damage and return a totally different lens!!!!

[David Bell]

Nasty situation and I feel for you! I have been too wary to sell anything of high value on Ebay, but have thought of a collect in person as the only option for delivery to safeguard against this sort of thing. At least they can inspect and test the lens while you are with them. It will restrict you selling options though.

[William]

Ebay rules are firmly stacked in favour of the buyer to make eBay a "safe place to buy". 

I imagine that the Resolution Centre would find in favour of the buyer because your stock images showed a new lens.  They'd expect a photographer to have the facilities to provide pix of the actual lens sold.

Have you thought of claiming from the carrier for damage caused in transit?

[Gary Davies]

Another 45 minutes on the phone speaking to the brick wall that is eBay.. 

Here's how I left it with them; under the Data Protection Act I've asked for a number of items of evidence:

1. The buyer's proof it was 'faulty', obviously along with the serial number (yes, it's definitely my lens back)
2. Copy of relevant UK legislation that 'guarantees a full refund from a private seller if you damage secondhand goods after sale'
3. Copies of their internal investigation as it's pertinient to me

I'll be putting this request in writing to them too.
I expect a nil return on each of these points..

Yes, good point about using stock images. However, the advert stated that it was a stock image (and sourced from eBay!), the item was used and my description that stated the optics were clean, the lens was in good condition apart from a scratch on the underside etc.

And, of course after all this, being an L series lens, despite the ding in it, and the IS element visibly wobbling around all over the place OFF the camera, when it's ON camera, and IS is engaged, it's still as sharp as ever. Perhaps a test on an calibrator would tell otherwise, but real world..

William, it wasn't damaged in transit, the packaging was unmarked on both legs of the journey. To have got a ding in the tripod collar through the original box, and through the outer carton and the mass of polychips inside the outer carton, the packaging would have to have been almost destroyed. So, no, I don't think Royal Mail are going to stand for that!

[Jodie Acty]

Just a quick comment on my experiences, even if you place your own photos (in the case of 1 x latex dress I sold I had 12 photos showing the exact detail of the dress), it doesn't stop people using the "dispute" system via Paypal and Ebay. 

There is 1 x buyer I have dealt with (unfortunately) who pretty much disputes everything she has bought.  This person bought 2 items from me, then a further 1 a few weeks later, didn't mention a single issue, only communication received was to ask for the tracking number for the last item (which I had already listed on ebay).  I log into my emails 1 day a few weeks later to find out I have a dispute against me.

When I log into Paypal, I discover that she has disputed every single item she bought.  She claimed 2 of the items were "damaged", the last I have no idea what she was disputing.

I escalated it to a claim with Paypal as she was clearly trying it on (due to the information I had in the listings and the detailed photos I had provided), oh and I knew damn well the items were not damaged.  I uploaded all the evidence to Paypal, had numerous telephone calls with them, and they ermm found in her favour on 1 x dispute. 

I again called them stating that the items were going to be returned in a different condition to what I had posted them (she claimed damaged - broken strap on one dress etc, which is interesting as my photos showed the straps in detail and as being complete), Paypal's advise was "oh you can appeal in that case".  Though you have only 10 days to do this.

The "buyer" provided a tracking number for the items (which is all they have to do and once the website for the shipping company shows as received), they automatically close the dispute.  They don't actually check whether you have received it and/or if there was anything wrong.  In my case, I received a small box containing a brown scarf and a french postcard, certainly not the 2 x latex dresses and 1 x latex top that this buyer bought from me.

I contacted Paypal, sent them the photos etc and they appealed the closed dispute and stated that they would not close the other one.  Eventually both disputes were closed in my favour.

Since my 2 x disputes, I have had 4 other sellers contacting me (due to a comment I was able to leave on this buyers feedback) who have since had the exact same issues with this buyer.  I have provided all the details to each of these sellers and to Paypal numerous times etc, yet they are still allowing this buyer to scam people.  I am just waiting for the next 1 to contact me.........

The last I heard from Paypal was that they were going to pass the information to their fraud department, yet it seems nothing has been done as one of the sellers contacted me the other day and she has since lost her appeal.

The entire process is like banging your head against a brick wall.  Paypal and Ebay will find in the favour of the buyer in each case as that is the easy option for them so I have discovered.  They will place a charge on your Paypal account (as the seller), refund the buyer, and the buyer has to send the item/s back to you in the condition they were sold.  That is their solution to any disputes. Unfortunately as evidenced by my long saga above (sorry for the length), it renders the entire process as being completely flawed, let alone very frustrating and time consuming.

Suffice to say, it has put me off selling anything on Ebay for life!

[Gary Davies]

In a way I'm just amazed I got my lens back. Though I wonder if someone might just have swapped out the IS elements for their own broken ones.

I'll not be paying them. Simple as that.

[Graeme Hutchison]

Just a quick comment on my experiences, even if you place your own photos (in the case of 1 x latex dress I sold I had 12 photos showing the exact detail of the dress), it doesn't stop people using the "dispute" system via Paypal and Ebay. 

There is 1 x buyer I have dealt with (unfortunately) who pretty much disputes everything she has bought.  This person bought 2 items from me, then a further 1 a few weeks later, didn't mention a single issue, only communication received was to ask for the tracking number for the last item (which I had already listed on ebay).  I log into my emails 1 day a few weeks later to find out I have a dispute against me.

When I log into Paypal, I discover that she has disputed every single item she bought.  She claimed 2 of the items were "damaged", the last I have no idea what she was disputing.

I escalated it to a claim with Paypal as she was clearly trying it on (due to the information I had in the listings and the detailed photos I had provided), oh and I knew damn well the items were not damaged.  I uploaded all the evidence to Paypal, had numerous telephone calls with them, and they ermm found in her favour on 1 x dispute. 

I again called them stating that the items were going to be returned in a different condition to what I had posted them (she claimed damaged - broken strap on one dress etc, which is interesting as my photos showed the straps in detail and as being complete), Paypal's advise was "oh you can appeal in that case".  Though you have only 10 days to do this.

The "buyer" provided a tracking number for the items (which is all they have to do and once the website for the shipping company shows as received), they automatically close the dispute.  They don't actually check whether you have received it and/or if there was anything wrong.  In my case, I received a small box containing a brown scarf and a french postcard, certainly not the 2 x latex dresses and 1 x latex top that this buyer bought from me.

I contacted Paypal, sent them the photos etc and they appealed the closed dispute and stated that they would not close the other one.  Eventually both disputes were closed in my favour.

Since my 2 x disputes, I have had 4 other sellers contacting me (due to a comment I was able to leave on this buyers feedback) who have since had the exact same issues with this buyer.  I have provided all the details to each of these sellers and to Paypal numerous times etc, yet they are still allowing this buyer to scam people.  I am just waiting for the next 1 to contact me.........

The last I heard from Paypal was that they were going to pass the information to their fraud department, yet it seems nothing has been done as one of the sellers contacted me the other day and she has since lost her appeal.

The entire process is like banging your head against a brick wall.  Paypal and Ebay will find in the favour of the buyer in each case as that is the easy option for them so I have discovered.  They will place a charge on your Paypal account (as the seller), refund the buyer, and the buyer has to send the item/s back to you in the condition they were sold.  That is their solution to any disputes. Unfortunately as evidenced by my long saga above (sorry for the length), it renders the entire process as being completely flawed, let alone very frustrating and time consuming.

Suffice to say, it has put me off selling anything on Ebay for life!

I think the third word was a typo?

I have had similar experiences where someone has purchased an item and sent it back with tracking (which ebay do check for delivery date) but doesnt say what is in the box. Im my case I took pictures of the postage cost and stamp proving a 1KG item couldn't be posted in an DL envelope for 89p.

Needless to say I won the case.

[Gary Evans]

I think the third word was a typo?

lol.  Well spotted

 

[Jodie Acty]

Just a quick comment on my experiences, even if you place your own photos (in the case of 1 x latex dress I sold I had 12 photos showing the exact detail of the dress), it doesn't stop people using the "dispute" system via Paypal and Ebay. 

There is 1 x buyer I have dealt with (unfortunately) who pretty much disputes everything she has bought.  This person bought 2 items from me, then a further 1 a few weeks later, didn't mention a single issue, only communication received was to ask for the tracking number for the last item (which I had already listed on ebay).  I log into my emails 1 day a few weeks later to find out I have a dispute against me.

When I log into Paypal, I discover that she has disputed every single item she bought.  She claimed 2 of the items were "damaged", the last I have no idea what she was disputing.

I escalated it to a claim with Paypal as she was clearly trying it on (due to the information I had in the listings and the detailed photos I had provided), oh and I knew damn well the items were not damaged.  I uploaded all the evidence to Paypal, had numerous telephone calls with them, and they ermm found in her favour on 1 x dispute. 

I again called them stating that the items were going to be returned in a different condition to what I had posted them (she claimed damaged - broken strap on one dress etc, which is interesting as my photos showed the straps in detail and as being complete), Paypal's advise was "oh you can appeal in that case".  Though you have only 10 days to do this.

The "buyer" provided a tracking number for the items (which is all they have to do and once the website for the shipping company shows as received), they automatically close the dispute.  They don't actually check whether you have received it and/or if there was anything wrong.  In my case, I received a small box containing a brown scarf and a french postcard, certainly not the 2 x latex dresses and 1 x latex top that this buyer bought from me.

I contacted Paypal, sent them the photos etc and they appealed the closed dispute and stated that they would not close the other one.  Eventually both disputes were closed in my favour.

Since my 2 x disputes, I have had 4 other sellers contacting me (due to a comment I was able to leave on this buyers feedback) who have since had the exact same issues with this buyer.  I have provided all the details to each of these sellers and to Paypal numerous times etc, yet they are still allowing this buyer to scam people.  I am just waiting for the next 1 to contact me.........

The last I heard from Paypal was that they were going to pass the information to their fraud department, yet it seems nothing has been done as one of the sellers contacted me the other day and she has since lost her appeal.

The entire process is like banging your head against a brick wall.  Paypal and Ebay will find in the favour of the buyer in each case as that is the easy option for them so I have discovered.  They will place a charge on your Paypal account (as the seller), refund the buyer, and the buyer has to send the item/s back to you in the condition they were sold.  That is their solution to any disputes. Unfortunately as evidenced by my long saga above (sorry for the length), it renders the entire process as being completely flawed, let alone very frustrating and time consuming.

Suffice to say, it has put me off selling anything on Ebay for life!

I think the third word was a typo?

I have had similar experiences where someone has purchased an item and sent it back with tracking (which ebay do check for delivery date) but doesnt say what is in the box. Im my case I took pictures of the postage cost and stamp proving a 1KG item couldn't be posted in an DL envelope for 89p.

Needless to say I won the case.

Actually nope, that was the short version of the entire frustrating sequence of events.   

[Michael Martin]

You tell 'em Jodie